Ideas for Aros Distributions

OlafS3 · 1476

cdimauro

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Reply #45 on: December 30, 2020, 03:38:27 PM
@aGGreSSor: don't try to change the cards on the table. You attacked and me, even before your previous comment, and I've just reacted. Don't hit the dog if you don't want to be torn...

Chromium was just an example, and I can find others, but this isn't the point. As well talking about pthread_create isn't the point as well. The real point is that for replacing fork you should understand how the application/code works, manages its resources, and therefore if fork can be replaced by another simpler API or some alternative code to workaround the massive (all!) duplication of resources that forks normally does. So, it requires deep understanding of the application behavior, and this takes time.

Finally and regarding the CSV, before proceeding it's necessary to understand what information should be collected. So, this requires time to check what's needed, the data to be collected, and how to do it. Only after that you can define the fields on the CSV (or any other format which better suites the goal). Once defined the format, the code for gathering the data and filling the CSV can be worked on. And so on.
So, and in short, it's necessary to define the requirements from the proposed idea. Only after that you can proceed.

BTW, why you're assuming that the ones which are proposing some ideas should work on them? This is a thread which just collects ideas, and where I contributed with some of them. Dot. I've other, personal projects which keep me busy. That's it.



aGGreSSor

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Reply #46 on: December 30, 2020, 08:52:39 PM
Don't hit the dog if you don't want to be torn...
You decided that you were offended, but there was nothing to be offended. We have different mentality. If you criticize then offer, but if offered then do. I wasn't going to re-educate you.

Chromium was just an example, and I can find others, but this isn't the point. As well talking about pthread_create isn't the point as well. The real point is that for replacing fork you should understand how the application/code works, manages its resources, and therefore if fork can be replaced by another simpler API or some alternative code to workaround the massive (all!) duplication of resources that forks normally does. So, it requires deep understanding of the application behavior, and this takes time.
Yes. This is the usual porting job. Such programs in C that you can just take and compile everywhere as is are found only in dreams. AROS has done a lot to make it easier and greatly influenced the ecosystems of AmigaOS descendants (AOS4 and MOS). However, it didnít turn into "take and compile". Exactly the same in other systems (for example, porting from Linux to Windows). For the program to be cross-platform, it must be immediately designed cross-platform, taking into account the capabilities of the supported platforms. I think it's common knowledge.

Finally and regarding the CSV, before proceeding it's necessary to understand what information should be collected. So, this requires time to check what's needed, the data to be collected, and how to do it. Only after that you can define the fields on the CSV (or any other format which better suites the goal). Once defined the format, the code for gathering the data and filling the CSV can be worked on. And so on. So, and in short, it's necessary to define the requirements from the proposed idea. Only after that you can proceed.
Yes. That's why I suggested doing all this (without the data collection code), and then, I could put myself in a plan to make an interface, collect data and compare them. Other developers also would cope with this task, there are people here who know Lua (I don't know him), Pascal (wrote in Pascal and Delphi for a very, very long time). Your idea rests on the human factor: who will collect and update the data. This is a whole project. Therefore, question number One: who will do it. It doesn't matter who writes the program. Anyone who is interested in the idea will write. Without data, it's like a wish for good weather.

BTW, why you're assuming that the ones which are proposing some ideas should work on them? This is a thread which just collects ideas, and where I contributed with some of them. Dot. I've other, personal projects which keep me busy. That's it.
I get it. Let's try to translate an anecdote for you?

Hedgehogs come to the wise old owl and ask her: how can we make sure that wild animals do not eat us?
The owl thought and answered: hedgehogs need to become lions. No one eats lions and everyone is afraid.
The hedgehogs were delighted, thanked the owl and got ready to leave.
Then one silly little hedgehog asked the owl: how can we become lions?
The owl answered him: I have already explained the strategy to you, but deal with the tactics yourself.


Johndoe

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Reply #47 on: December 31, 2020, 02:24:54 AM
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Tell me where you saw in AmigaOS something similar to display manager in X11/XOrg like xdm, gdm, kdm and 100500+ dm? Gnome and KDE apps can be ported to AmigaOS 4, MorphOS and AROS. At the same time, they will terribly slow down, but in principle, this has already been done more than once. The appearance of windows in KDE doesn't matter, Zune has much more control over application windows.

Is it difficult to implement support for a X-server in AROS?
« Last Edit: December 31, 2020, 02:31:33 AM by Johndoe »



Samurai_Crow

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Reply #48 on: December 31, 2020, 04:04:17 AM
@Johndoe

X11 is very difficult to implement on non-POSIX platforms like AROS.  Not impossible but impractical.  KDE is based on Qt framework which is a huge monstrosity compared to both Zune and the closed source MUI it is based on.



cdimauro

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Reply #49 on: December 31, 2020, 07:34:43 AM
Don't hit the dog if you don't want to be torn...
You decided that you were offended, but there was nothing to be offended. We have different mentality. If you criticize then offer, but if offered then do. I wasn't going to re-educate you.
How did you come from "attacked" to "offended"? Do you know the differences between those two verbs, or should I put a link to the Collin's?

You continue to don't understand what people is writing, and taking different conclusions. So, it's not a question of educating me (which I don't need: I was participating to the discussion in a polite way, before that you decided to attack me), rather than someone should help solve your evident problems here.

Anyway, the messages are there and readers can sequentially look at them and realize who shit outside of the pot.
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Chromium was just an example, and I can find others, but this isn't the point. As well talking about pthread_create isn't the point as well. The real point is that for replacing fork you should understand how the application/code works, manages its resources, and therefore if fork can be replaced by another simpler API or some alternative code to workaround the massive (all!) duplication of resources that forks normally does. So, it requires deep understanding of the application behavior, and this takes time.
Yes. This is the usual porting job. Such programs in C that you can just take and compile everywhere as is are found only in dreams. AROS has done a lot to make it easier and greatly influenced the ecosystems of AmigaOS descendants (AOS4 and MOS). However, it didnít turn into "take and compile". Exactly the same in other systems (for example, porting from Linux to Windows). For the program to be cross-platform, it must be immediately designed cross-platform, taking into account the capabilities of the supported platforms. I think it's common knowledge.
No: it's absolutely not common knowledge. And that's because it's up to the developer decide on which platform his application should run. Platforms can be very different, and a developer should take a decision about which one or more should be supported. Writing portable code has a cost, which some developers don't want to pay. Or, more simpler, developers can have knowledge limited to one or a few platforms, which prevents them to write code portable to others. Finally, there are developers which on purpose do NOT want to support some platforms (a notable example: the Node.js developer/s, which explicitly refused to support Windows. Then Microsoft had to pay for it).

And the more complex is the application, then more complicated is writing portable code. Think about an application that has a GUI, and you can easily have nightmares considering how many different native APIs and toolkits are available for different platforms.

So, and again, no. It's not as simple as you want to sell it.
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Finally and regarding the CSV, before proceeding it's necessary to understand what information should be collected. So, this requires time to check what's needed, the data to be collected, and how to do it. Only after that you can define the fields on the CSV (or any other format which better suites the goal). Once defined the format, the code for gathering the data and filling the CSV can be worked on. And so on. So, and in short, it's necessary to define the requirements from the proposed idea. Only after that you can proceed.
Yes. That's why I suggested doing all this (without the data collection code), and then, I could put myself in a plan to make an interface, collect data and compare them. Other developers also would cope with this task, there are people here who know Lua (I don't know him), Pascal (wrote in Pascal and Delphi for a very, very long time).
As I've already said, the problem is defining what information is needed for the CSV, and this requires that some AROS developer (which has knowledge in that low-level field) should support.
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Your idea rests on the human factor: who will collect and update the data. This is a whole project. Therefore, question number One: who will do it. It doesn't matter who writes the program. Anyone who is interested in the idea will write. Without data, it's like a wish for good weather.
Since the goal is (and should always be) to make the life easy to the users, they should just select an item on a menu (like when sending the report to Icaros).

Then the invoked application should transparently send the collected data somewhere (e.g.: an email to an address, invoking a simple http/https API from a specific server, committing a simple patch to a git repo, etc. There are multiple way to achieve it, and this should be defined as well), with a fallback solution if this isn't possible (e.g.: no internet connection -> writing the information to a file -> show a requester to the user with DETAILED instructions on what to do, to manually send it somewhere).

Once received, the information will be checked against the existing database, and updated if it's the case. A human intervention will be required in case of conflicts.

As you can see, it's the usual matter of writing the project's requirements (functional and non functional) and clearly defining the actors and goals.
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BTW, why you're assuming that the ones which are proposing some ideas should work on them? This is a thread which just collects ideas, and where I contributed with some of them. Dot. I've other, personal projects which keep me busy. That's it.
I get it. Let's try to translate an anecdote for you?

Hedgehogs come to the wise old owl and ask her: how can we make sure that wild animals do not eat us?
The owl thought and answered: hedgehogs need to become lions. No one eats lions and everyone is afraid.
The hedgehogs were delighted, thanked the owl and got ready to leave.
Then one silly little hedgehog asked the owl: how can we become lions?
The owl answered him: I have already explained the strategy to you, but deal with the tactics yourself.
Again? What's not clear to you about this:
"Ideas for Aros Distributions"
and this:
"I've other, personal projects which keep me busy"
?



aGGreSSor

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Reply #50 on: December 31, 2020, 11:08:09 AM
How did you come from "attacked" to "offended"? Do you know the differences between those two verbs, or should I put a link to the Collin's?
Who is Collin's? I can send you to the Ozhegov dictionary. :D
In Russian you are called "offended" (English is very scarce, very few shades of words), welcome. Aren't you tired of complaining?

You continue to don't understand what people is writing, and taking different conclusions.
Again you are talking about yourself in the plural. For example, I agree with OlafS3 comment earlier and didn't comment on it. Some of your unsubstantiated statements cause concern, because beginners can read them, remember and consider them true about AROS and Amiga. The problem is not that someone on the Internet is wrong (no matter), but that there are too few of us, and casual readers will no longer try to test the theory in practice. this is how a sect of believers in insurmountable difficulties appears

No: it's absolutely not common knowledge.
Badly. You can open any cross platform tutorial and it will be written there on the first pages.

And that's because it's up to the developer decide on which platform his application should run. [..] Finally, there are developers which on purpose do NOT want to support some platforms (a notable example: the Node.js developer/s, which explicitly refused to support Windows. Then Microsoft had to pay for it).
You have described cases where the developer does NOT want to create a cross-platform application, or when he wants to create an application LIMITED to specific platforms. I wrote about a situation when a developer needs to write an application that works, for example, on Linux, Windows and like AmigaOS. Besides the fact that there are real examples like Hollywood, flexcat, etc, I design such applications myself (mostly console).

And the more complex is the application, then more complicated is writing portable code. Think about an application that has a GUI, and you can easily have nightmares considering how many different native APIs and toolkits are available for different platforms.
No. Any application is divided into logic and interface. The logic doesn't change. complexity is caused by the popularity of frameworks. The lack of frameworks and libraries from one platform to another leads to a monstrous waste of human time. Therefore the tools must be selected before development. The creation of graphical interfaces is simplified as much as possible today. You just have to create your own similar interface.

Before the advent of object-oriented programming and frameworks, a team of two or three people released their game to a dozen microcomputers. It's not a problem to know, for example, a simple and friendly m68k asm, a simple as a cork z80 asm, etc, convert graphics, since the logic doesn't change. Today we have much more opportunities.

As I've already said, the problem is defining what information is needed for the CSV, and this requires that some AROS developer (which has knowledge in that low-level field) should support.
I am not familiar with this AROS developer. But he would be like a developer who programs neural networks with one hand and repairs teapots with the other.

Since the goal is (and should always be) to make the life easy to the users, they should just select an item on a menu (like when sending the report to Icaros).
I'm not sure if Paolo is ready to analyze these reports, I have to ask him.  ;D

As you can see, it's the usual matter of writing the project's requirements (functional and non functional) and clearly defining the actors and goals.
We started with this. I asked: who will do it, provide all the infrastructure and feedback. Offered to you, but for some reason you refused and offended. ;D Based on formal logic, we will see the same natural reaction from any AROS developer to whom you want to entrust this idea. The developer must have resources, a penchant for monotonous work, knowledge of the hardware in relation to the current AROS code base and work full time. it's a pity that he should not be able to fly.  ;D

Again? What's not clear to you about this:
Did you not like the anecdote? I'm sorry, I tried.
I concluded that you have ideas for world domination, but you do not want them to be embodied in reality, because at the moment you are busy.
I suggested that you make some kind of lightweight compromise, but you flatly refused.
Is that correct? In turn, I see no problem discussing ideas with their implementation together.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2020, 11:36:34 AM by aGGreSSor »



cdimauro

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Reply #51 on: December 31, 2020, 08:15:48 PM
How did you come from "attacked" to "offended"? Do you know the differences between those two verbs, or should I put a link to the Collin's?
Who is Collin's? I can send you to the Ozhegov dictionary. :D
https://www.collinsdictionary.com
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In Russian you are called "offended" (English is very scarce, very few shades of words), welcome.
Guess what: we're speaking English, and not Russian...
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Aren't you tired of complaining?
No, since you're continuing, trying to change the cards on the table, instead of admitting what you did and putting a tombstone on it.
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You continue to don't understand what people is writing, and taking different conclusions.
Again you are talking about yourself in the plural. For example, I agree with OlafS3 comment earlier and didn't comment on it. Some of your unsubstantiated statements cause concern,
Only to you, because you don't understand. Nothing of what I've written is "unsubstantiated". You can quote me and show me the contrary if you think differently, since it's YOUR statement, and YOU have to prove it.
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because beginners can read them, remember and consider them true about AROS and Amiga. The problem is not that someone on the Internet is wrong (no matter), but that there are too few of us, and casual readers will no longer try to test the theory in practice. this is how a sect of believers in insurmountable difficulties appears
There's nothing like that in this thread, but you can show me it, in case (see above).
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No: it's absolutely not common knowledge.
Badly. You can open any cross platform tutorial and it will be written there on the first pages.
Irrelevant: I've already reported all possible cases / scenarios, and what you're saying applies only to some.
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And that's because it's up to the developer decide on which platform his application should run. [..] Finally, there are developers which on purpose do NOT want to support some platforms (a notable example: the Node.js developer/s, which explicitly refused to support Windows. Then Microsoft had to pay for it).
You have described cases where the developer does NOT want to create a cross-platform application, or when he wants to create an application LIMITED to specific platforms.
Which... rolling drum... is the reality. And a good part of it, otherwise Windows wasn't the platform with the vast majority of software, just to give the most notable example.
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I wrote about a situation when a developer needs to write an application that works, for example, on Linux, Windows and like AmigaOS. Besides the fact that there are real examples like Hollywood, flexcat, etc, I design such applications myself (mostly console).
You are you, and not the vast majority of developers, which think and act differently.

IF a developer wants to create a multiplatform application he already knows that he'll find some way to do it (e.g.: searching and then tinkering), if he hasn't experience about it.
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And the more complex is the application, then more complicated is writing portable code. Think about an application that has a GUI, and you can easily have nightmares considering how many different native APIs and toolkits are available for different platforms.
No. Any application is divided into logic and interface. The logic doesn't change. complexity is caused by the popularity of frameworks. The lack of frameworks and libraries from one platform to another leads to a monstrous waste of human time. Therefore the tools must be selected before development. The creation of graphical interfaces is simplified as much as possible today. You just have to create your own similar interface.

Before the advent of object-oriented programming and frameworks, a team of two or three people released their game to a dozen microcomputers. It's not a problem to know, for example, a simple and friendly m68k asm, a simple as a cork z80 asm, etc, convert graphics, since the logic doesn't change. Today we have much more opportunities.
You're clearly lacking experience on designing applications with GUIs. Even the business logic can change drastically when using a specific platform/toolkit. And even a specific platform can you give different ways to do the same things: think about Windows and the GUI APIs for Win32, .NET 1.x, .NET 2.x, .NET/WinForms, .NET/Silverlight, .NET/WPF, UWP.

Try to port a WPF application to Amiga o.s.|AROS / MUI|Zune, and show me that you're keeping the same exact business logic, while "just" (!) changing the presentation part of the application. I'm taking the popcorns...
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As I've already said, the problem is defining what information is needed for the CSV, and this requires that some AROS developer (which has knowledge in that low-level field) should support.
I am not familiar with this AROS developer. But he would be like a developer who programs neural networks with one hand and repairs teapots with the other.
Might be. But in this case it's required that he just knows how AROS handles the PCI (and USB) peripherals, and the minimum set of their data to be stored in the CSV.
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Since the goal is (and should always be) to make the life easy to the users, they should just select an item on a menu (like when sending the report to Icaros).
I'm not sure if Paolo is ready to analyze these reports, I have to ask him.  ;D
He shouldn't: this is a task better suited for a developer. Or at least someone which has enough technical knowledge about the above arguments.
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As you can see, it's the usual matter of writing the project's requirements (functional and non functional) and clearly defining the actors and goals.
We started with this. I asked: who will do it, provide all the infrastructure and feedback. Offered to you, but for some reason you refused and offended. ;D Based on formal logic, we will see the same natural reaction from any AROS developer to whom you want to entrust this idea. The developer must have resources, a penchant for monotonous work, knowledge of the hardware in relation to the current AROS code base and work full time. it's a pity that he should not be able to fly.  ;D
Based on the formal logic you don't know if the person which is sharing an idea is capable of contributing in some way on its implementation.

And based on my knowledge and experience, AROS is an anarchy land, where developers do whatever they want, since they work for fun on this project (unless if someone is interested on some bounty. And even there, they'll pick what they like), and to the parts that they like.
So, if someone is interested on a task, he'll pick and work on it, without waiting that someone (who, since this project is head-less?) is "offering" him to do it...
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Again? What's not clear to you about this:
Did you not like the anecdote? I'm sorry, I tried.
I concluded that you have ideas for world domination, but you do not want them to be embodied in reality, because at the moment you are busy.
As usual, yours are non-sense, since you continue to don't understand what people is writing, and drawing your own conclusions (which are wrong, of course).

In fact, from the above sentence, the first and central parts are false, and only the last is true. Elementary logic at the hands.
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I suggested that you make some kind of lightweight compromise, but you flatly refused.
You aren't in a position to suggest or offer something on the AROS land, because you don't know how the things work here: see above.

And I refused because, as I've said, I've other projects. But even if I had spare time AND wanted to work on something on/for AROS, I would have picked completely different tasks, since, as a developer, I'm interested on (very) different topics.
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Is that correct?
No. You continue to draw wrong conclusions. As I've already said, I suggest you to better trying to understand what people says, BEFORE writing something.
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In turn, I see no problem discussing ideas with their implementation together.
Me neither. Since it's a thread -> discussion is a natural thing.

IF you, as a developer, want to implement something, and it's your problem, but don't draw conclusions about other peoples.

And now a final question to you: doesn't your "formal logic" suggest you that you're wasting a lot of time arguing about stupid things, instead of using it for some concrete work?
« Last Edit: December 31, 2020, 10:29:43 PM by cdimauro »



x-vision

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Reply #52 on: January 01, 2021, 10:37:26 PM


And now a final question to you: doesn't your "formal logic" suggest you that you're wasting a lot of time arguing about stupid things, instead of using it for some concrete work?

Sadly, I'm afraid you are wasting your time too: I realised he is the kind of person that NEVER EVER will accept his mistakes, or barely any other idea that isn't his ones.

So sad to check (once more) that Amigaland only seems to attract this kind of characters. Too bad we need people, but this type is so needless



magorium

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Reply #53 on: January 02, 2021, 10:46:17 AM

1. imho it would be more productive if users just could use one of those many pen-drive tools that allows them to install a .iso to it and be able to boot from it. That i am able to abuses hosted for it, is one thing but i do not expect a noob to be able do that.

2. Other than that, i like the idea about checking configurations. Paolone already did such a thing by allowing people to report their (supported) hardware. Since i have never heard of it again (good or bad), i can only assume that was a dead-end ?

1. +1, but I may say +2, +100 or +1000. I can't count how many times I had to delude people who tried to turn Icaros ISOs into USB pendrives using uNetbootin, Rufus and similar tools. There is a quite simple procedure to create an AROS installation pendrive, and I even made it even simplier with the "Create USB installation pendrive" script in the root of Icaros DVDs, but giving the damn ISO to a Rufus-like tool would be faaaaaar simplier.
The special script you crufted for that works splendidly (thank you for that) but indeed it would be much simpler that way. 

It is that i have an interest in AROS so i am willing to spent some time in order to learn how to install/configure/use it but at the same time if i wish to try out any other distro i'm lazy as hell as well and just want to 'burn' the iso to a pen-drive/sd-card/hd and be up and running as quick as possible.

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2. It's still inside the guts of Icaros Desktop and I am quite sure it is still working today. It's a pity no one reads the documentation and every day people repeat the same questions like parrots.

Just look to this thread, with people asking things Icaros is doing for a decade.
Indeed. It is really depressing to still have to witness such things.

As already noticed, the implementation itself would have taken less code-lines then the number of lines written in this thread on the subject. Not that it is needed as you paolone already did that back for us back in the day 8)

For sure the current implementation could perhaps be modernized but, why bother if nobody seem to have used it in the first place  :'(



And yes, the support for iso 'burning' has been discussed in the past as well, so i am/was expecting a "asked and answered" reaction, which is also fine.

@aGGreSSor: at the least you have some hands on action vouching for you  8)


aGGreSSor

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Reply #54 on: January 02, 2021, 12:17:31 PM
Guess what: we're speaking English, and not Russian...
This is a big drawback, but we continue the conversation.  ;D

Nothing of what I've written is "unsubstantiated". You can quote me and show me the contrary if you think differently, since it's YOUR statement, and YOU have to prove it.
No problems. There is enough rubbish in every answer. Read below

You're clearly lacking experience on designing applications with GUIs. Even the business logic can change drastically when using a specific platform/toolkit. And even a specific platform can you give different ways to do the same things: think about Windows and the GUI APIs for Win32, .NET 1.x, .NET 2.x, .NET/WinForms, .NET/Silverlight, .NET/WPF, UWP.

Try to port a WPF application to Amiga o.s.|AROS / MUI|Zune, and show me that you're keeping the same exact business logic, while "just" (!) changing the presentation part of the application. I'm taking the popcorns...
Business logic is a completely different maturity level and tasks. For operating systems like AmigaOS, there are NO applications with business logic, and there never will be. Users of these OS don't need an enterprise bus or interconnect with exadata. It has nothing to do with the separation of logic (not business logic) and application GUI. A stupid calculator written in C # .NET will have the same logic as written in AmigaBasic for AmigaOS. Logic and mathematics don't change, otherwise we did not have anything to rely on. You wrote nonsense against the background of tens of thousands of projects for porting software from mainframes, old microcomputers and programmable calculators to modern platforms with only LOGIC saved! Where are the buttons in GUI and how they look - this is the hundred and twenty-fifth case, which has no meaning. The application can have interchangeable GUI and CLI interface, no problem. Please, this game was written in 1964, I made it available to you, moreover, it can now work in any number of languages (translated into English and Russian). You think you have problems drawing a graphical interface for Zune, GTK or Avalonia ? No such problems. Will you have to rewrite the code? Yes, it will have to be reformatted. The larger the application, the longer it takes. But this is a dull monotonous job that does not require any intelligence. The only question that always arises is who needs it? If no one needs it, no one will do anything.

And now a final question to you: doesn't your "formal logic" suggest you that you're wasting a lot of time arguing about stupid things, instead of using it for some concrete work?
Yes it is fair, but I already gave an answer to this question in a post earlier. I have nothing against you personally and I simply don't answer all your texts with which I AGREE or which NOT MATTER. I answer only to harmful conclusions. Therefore, you are receiving generally negative feedback. Communicating with me you will always have this form of conversation.


aGGreSSor

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Reply #55 on: January 02, 2021, 12:36:03 PM
So sad to check (once more) that Amigaland only seems to attract this kind of characters. Too bad we need people, but this type is so needless
Seem to be from Spain? Here a lot of work for you. Spanish is hardly supported in AROS, what was done long ago is outdated. Don't thank.  ;)


cdimauro

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Reply #56 on: January 03, 2021, 07:51:24 AM
Sadly, I'm afraid you are wasting your time too: I realised he is the kind of person that NEVER EVER will accept his mistakes, or barely any other idea that isn't his ones.
The primary problem for me is that he's putting words on my mouth, otherwise I hadn't spent other time with him.

Indeed. It is really depressing to still have to witness such things.

As already noticed, the implementation itself would have taken less code-lines then the number of lines written in this thread on the subject. Not that it is needed as you paolone already did that back for us back in the day 8)

For sure the current implementation could perhaps be modernized but, why bother if nobody seem to have used it in the first place  :'(
What was proposed and discussed is a different thing, and it isn't something which can be achieved writings a few lines of code, even using Python (which is particularly well suited for most of the needed tasks, since it has built-in libraries and requires much less lines of code compared to other languages).

Nothing of what I've written is "unsubstantiated". You can quote me and show me the contrary if you think differently, since it's YOUR statement, and YOU have to prove it.
No problems. There is enough rubbish in every answer. Read below
I agree, and for the same problem. So, yes: see my reply below.
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You're clearly lacking experience on designing applications with GUIs. Even the business logic can change drastically when using a specific platform/toolkit. And even a specific platform can you give different ways to do the same things: think about Windows and the GUI APIs for Win32, .NET 1.x, .NET 2.x, .NET/WinForms, .NET/Silverlight, .NET/WPF, UWP.

Try to port a WPF application to Amiga o.s.|AROS / MUI|Zune, and show me that you're keeping the same exact business logic, while "just" (!) changing the presentation part of the application. I'm taking the popcorns...
Business logic is a completely different maturity level and tasks. For operating systems like AmigaOS, there are NO applications with business logic, and there never will be. Users of these OS don't need an enterprise bus or interconnect with exadata. It has nothing to do with the separation of logic (not business logic) and application GUI. A stupid calculator written in C # .NET will have the same logic as written in AmigaBasic for AmigaOS. Logic and mathematics don't change, otherwise we did not have anything to rely on. You wrote nonsense against the background of tens of thousands of projects for porting software from mainframes, old microcomputers and programmable calculators to modern platforms with only LOGIC saved! Where are the buttons in GUI and how they look - this is the hundred and twenty-fifth case, which has no meaning. The application can have interchangeable GUI and CLI interface, no problem. Please, this game was written in 1964, I made it available to you, moreover, it can now work in any number of languages (translated into English and Russian). You think you have problems drawing a graphical interface for Zune, GTK or Avalonia ? No such problems. Will you have to rewrite the code? Yes, it will have to be reformatted. The larger the application, the longer it takes. But this is a dull monotonous job that does not require any intelligence. The only question that always arises is who needs it? If no one needs it, no one will do anything.
Another irrelevant wall-of-text. Here you forgot the context: what we were discussing about. Which was porting applications, and writing portable code.

Specifically, I've spoken about GUI applications, and it still applies what I've said, and the example about a WPF application which requires a different way to implement the business logic (definition which still applies) compared to other platforms & toolkits.

You replied with your usual rants changing again the cards on the table.

To me you not only have problems understanding what people is saying, but your clearly lack experience on other platforms/toolkits: you look like the typical Linux geek which knows something about his world, trying to apply his knowledge / extended his vision to the rest of world (which... works differently)...
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And now a final question to you: doesn't your "formal logic" suggest you that you're wasting a lot of time arguing about stupid things, instead of using it for some concrete work?
Yes it is fair, but I already gave an answer to this question in a post earlier. I have nothing against you personally and I simply don't answer all your texts with which I AGREE or which NOT MATTER. I answer only to harmful conclusions. Therefore, you are receiving generally negative feedback. Communicating with me you will always have this form of conversation.
Yes, the problem is that one: communicating with you. You have serious problems about it, and still continue failing. I suggest you to find some specialist instead of bothering other people.



magorium

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Reply #57 on: January 03, 2021, 02:59:28 PM
What was proposed and discussed is a different thing, and it isn't something which can be achieved writings a few lines of code, even using Python (which is particularly well suited for most of the needed tasks, since it has built-in libraries and requires much less lines of code compared to other languages).
Of course you might have made a proposal (and which isn't a bad one) which works differently from what is currently implemented but ..., why bother ?

right now:
- obtain data from system
- share data obtained from system

what you seem to propose:
- obtain data from system
- present user with information on already obtained system data from a "huge" database and check their specific system data against it (is it supported or not)
- share data obtained from system

That looks/smells to me as a natural evolution of code that is already in place. Might perhaps be working differently as proposed but as long as the results are the same.

The fact is that current implementation never matured because Paolone indicated back then that it was hardly used (only 2/3 people bothered, but please correct me if wrong).

As you wrote yourself python having a good stack of libraries, i base my opinion on a good stack of subroutines that i (or anyone else with some decent programming skills) can take a pick from, and make use of the current infrastructure that is in place.

Based on that then yes the discussion on this particular topic is using up more space than it would have in a code-editor  :P

So i end up with the notion of why waste time on yet another implementation (which would end up with similar results) ?

You know, you and me have been going back'n'forwards for more than a decade now, so you should know by now that i am a person of practical implementations, not hypothetical ones  :)

No matter how good the intention, practise always seems more reluctant to cooperate and, that seems especially true for AROS/Amiga.

With regards to personal beef between individuals, i am not going to bother with that other than stating that life is simply too short to get upset about these kind of things even though i understand that you wish to defend yourself in case someone put words in your mouth. It is all about perception/interpretation.

What was it again... live long and prosper ?  ;D


magorium

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Reply #58 on: January 03, 2021, 03:28:53 PM
And now a final question to you: doesn't your "formal logic" suggest you that you're wasting a lot of time arguing about stupid things, instead of using it for some concrete work?

Sadly, I'm afraid you are wasting your time too: I realised he is the kind of person that NEVER EVER will accept his mistakes, or barely any other idea that isn't his ones.

So sad to check (once more) that Amigaland only seems to attract this kind of characters. Too bad we need people, but this type is so needless
The thing that stuck with me over these years is that there seem people around that try to manipulate things to such level to let others to their bidding.

I guess the saying "You reap what you sow" doesn't really ring a bell, does it ?  ;)

So, keep on bashing aGGreSSor and see where that ends you guys up. It was done before but perhaps the outcome is different this time. After all, you never know  :o


paolone

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Reply #59 on: January 03, 2021, 05:50:15 PM
Well, in the end of this long and useful discussion.. any idea for a distribution?