Author Topic: The situation  (Read 1318 times)

nikos

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The situation
« on: October 16, 2019, 04:02:25 PM »
Dear friends.

I'm a fan of everything Amiga related. Ever since I discovered AROS around 15 years ago I had big hopes for it.
Time move on and they way we deal with computing move on.
I learned a lot throuh the years about Amiga and alternatives.
I did a lot for AROS through the years. Donating Money, creating a distribution "www.aspireos.com", A lot of beta testing and reports.
I regret nothing. I learned a lot and had fun, but also been frustrating.

Since almost all OS developers left and there been very little activity the last years, I tought it could be a good idea to talk about AROS and a possible future.

My opinion at least for now is this.
AROS targeted to be an open source Amiga like OS for new, powerfull hardware but also for classic.
I would say as a NG system AROS failed. Not cause it is worse than alternatives. AmigaOS 4, MorphOS, AROS have all failed trying to compete, being an alternative to modern computing operative systems.

We know the Vampire team now support AROS 68k. First of all for legal reasons. I now think this is where AROS can have a life into the future.
The problem is that if nothing is done to continue AROS 68k there will probably be other alternatives that might leave AROS in the dust.

We all know the legal problems with Amiga 68k but it might be solved and Amiga OS classic is being worked on. Next version Amiga 3.2

Remember noone care about muliti core, memory protection etc. etc. for Amiga classic. We don't have that problem there. AROS 68k have so much going for it. We have free USB stack, free network solution, Zune etc. et. I hope people start compile software and improve the compatiblety to the classic Amiga OS.

AROS runs fast on Vampire and I would love to see native software like Zune Tools on it.

Amiga classic is where new original games are developed. All sceners that do demos and mods. use classic Amiga systems up to 060 as Reference. Look at www.pouet.net and you will see a lot of productions last years and still very much alive.

Glad to hear what you think about AROS and the future.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2019, 04:33:22 PM by nikos »

miker1264

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Re: The situation
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2019, 04:55:08 PM »
@nikos

I agree that AROS 68k is one of the ways for AROS to continue to advance into the future. There is still much work to be done there. I'm willing to devote some time developing some alternate icon sets and themes for AROS 68k. I'd also like to start writing software with 68k resources in mind. So "if it runs on AROS 68k it will likely run everywhere".

I also think AROS 64bit is another way forward and it is making great progress recently. There isn't much software available yet for Icaros 64bit but that will change.

Another very promising and exciting way forward for AROS is support for ARM and Raspberry Pi. :-)

But I feel that you have touched upon something very important. For all Amiga-like operating systems the best way forward is to develop a spirit of cooperation rather than direct competition.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2019, 06:59:09 PM by miker1264 »

salvo

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Re: The situation
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2019, 07:23:55 AM »
the game is not lost, I know that everyone is working for something, but everything cannot be stopped now even if we are just a few, I think there will be a 64-bit version and later with multi-core support, it is also working for the vampire, we can have available 4 GB of ram and support for stationary cards, all this does not exist in the other systems, we look at what we have and we go on, the programmers will not stop now and this is certain, between a I will install the new icaros when it is available :D
Icaros on HP Z600 Intel Xeon X5570 3 Ghz, Nvidia 8400gs
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AMIGASYSTEM

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Re: The situation
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2019, 08:31:32 AM »

I'd also like to start writing software with 68k resources in mind. So "if it runs on AROS 68k it will likely run everywhere".

No native AROS 68 k software does not work on Amiga Classic, the opposite is true

Yannick

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Re: The situation
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2019, 08:39:58 AM »
After 10 years of wandering around Aros I'm not as optimistic.
Work on main repository is done to almost zero for months, ABIv1 is stalled.
Main developers have left or are working on their own forks (may be) and very few thinks are committed back to main trunk.
We're left with a few enthusiasts but with no or few developing skills (I'm counting myself into this category also) that will not bring Aros forward.

If core developers are not coming back, if no new skilled developers are joining, if ABIv1 is not finalizing in the next few months we will be left with what we have today, an OS without anyone behind to bring it further (same as OS3 in 1994).

I still like Aros and like developing for it (even if I judge myself not skilled enough to develop Aros itself).
I'm also really missing folks that were part of the community 4-5 years ago and were able to help new developers and were creating an emulation in the third party developer community.

Not very positive, but I think realistic...

miker1264

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Re: The situation
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2019, 10:49:50 AM »
After 10 years of wandering around Aros I'm not as optimistic.
Work on main repository is done to almost zero for months, ABIv1 is stalled.
Main developers have left or are working on their own forks (may be) and very few thinks are committed back to main trunk.
We're left with a few enthusiasts but with no or few developing skills (I'm counting myself into this category also) that will not bring Aros forward.

If core developers are not coming back, if no new skilled developers are joining, if ABIv1 is not finalizing in the next few months we will be left with what we have today, an OS without anyone behind to bring it further (same as OS3 in 1994).

I still like Aros and like developing for it (even if I judge myself not skilled enough to develop Aros itself).
I'm also really missing folks that were part of the community 4-5 years ago and were able to help new developers and were creating an emulation in the third party developer community.

Not very positive, but I think realistic...

Yannick

I have great respect for you and there is much room for optimism. I'm using the picdt tools on a regular basis trying to improve the picture datatypes. Zune Tools are a big part of Icaros Desktop and keep up the good work.

You are skilled enough to develop for AROS. I'm in regular contact with the development team, yes there is a team and not just one or two. It's true there are few in number but their skills are mighty! Tremendous things are happening behind the scenes moving x64 forward. All new development is for 64bit.

Paolone has provided the first working version of Icaros Desktop 64bit. It doesn't have much software. We are waiting with anticipation for Zune Tools and others to be compiled for 64bit AROS. The Future is Now.

Some developers with great skill, much more than me, are assembling a new build system to make it much easier for new programmers to compile their software. You and others have the skills to be very helpful as well. The Apollo Team has expressed their support for AROS 68k development. The developer network is much frenzied with work on m68k which has been neglected for some time. I'm providing icon tools and making the first new alternate icon sets for AROS, one for 68k and a more sophisticated set for other distros.

Much tedious time consuming work is being done behind the scenes with new graphics drivers, an entirely reworked Wanderer that will be light years ahead of what we have. Work on a Raspberry Pi version is continuing and advancing rapidly but it takes much time.

Maybe AROS developers can follow the example provided by the Apollo Team. They are also few in number but their skills are mighty! Because software development takes much time and effort, on the surface it seems like not much is happening. So Apollo Team give regular status updates about current and planned development goals.

Maybe this is an impromptu status update. :-) Just because there haven't been many commits lately doesn't meen development has stopped. Kalamatee and others are working very hard. I am very impressed with the new Wanderer. It has a cool new logo and it rocks! So nice.

Yes. Good things are coming soon. ;-)
« Last Edit: October 17, 2019, 11:08:49 AM by miker1264 »

lm

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Re: The situation
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2019, 11:52:18 AM »
Quote
...
 We are waiting with anticipation for Zune Tools and others to be compiled for 64bit AROS. The Future is Now.
...

Zune tools for 64bit aros are available here: https://sourceforge.net/projects/zunetools/files/x86_64/

Quote
...
I am very impressed with the new Wanderer. It has a cool new logo and it rocks! So nice.

Yes. Good things are coming soon. ;-)

Can you post a screen shot of the new Wanderer ?

nikos

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Re: The situation
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2019, 12:54:01 PM »
I tought things where exactly as Yannick described. Abi v.1 kind of killed the Project.

There was a time where AROS devs. where active at the forum and now it is like Hyperion if it is true
that things are being done.

I wish the OS devs. could show up here again. I don't understand why there are almost no commits to the night builds.
The build system got its stable branch so no worries to break anything there. We also have distributions for that.

miker1264

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Re: The situation
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2019, 12:56:13 PM »
Thank you. I'm sure Yannick mentioned that Zune Tools was being compiled for 64bit but maybe I missed that. I'll download the tools as soon as I can.

The Wanderer Update is Kalamatee's project. Since it is a Work-In-Progress I would have to ask him before posting any screenshots. But I don't think he would mind if I posted the Wanderer Logo to drum up some enthusiasm and support for the good work he is doing for AROS. Here is a screenshot of the new logo...

As for Wanderer maybe we could also adopt the saying from Tolkien as a new Motto: "All Those Who Wander Are Not Lost."

Although the new Wanderer will make my work look less difficult since initially I'm just porting DiskMaster2 to AROS, nonetheless DM2 has great potential. DiskMaster is one of my file managers that is a Work-In-Progress. It isn't as colorful as an Wanderer or Magellan Icon View but its simplistic Text-In-Lister Dual-Pane Display makes it attractive for minimalists like me. It is also very easy to configure...

Yannick

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Re: The situation
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2019, 01:04:24 PM »
This new Wanderer thing is a never ending story, we are waiting for the commits to go to main repository for years now (http://www.aros.org/fr/news/archive/2009.php)

There has been many discussions and posts in old Aros-Exec about this and the fact is that current Wanderer isn't worked on or improved because a new Wanderer shall come soon.


miker1264

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Re: The situation
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2019, 01:19:52 PM »
I tought things where exactly as Yannick described. Abi v.1 kind of killed the Project.

There was a time where AROS devs. where active at the forum and now it is like Hyperion if it is true
that things are being done.

I wish the OS devs. could show up here again. I don't understand why there are almost no commits to the night builds.
The build system got its stable branch so no worries to break anything there. We also have distributions for that.

There is much work going on behind the scenes. Paolone is getting Icaros Desktop 2.3.0 finalized and he's also working very hard at compiling and assembling software as much as he can for Icaros Desktop 64bit which is coming soon. A few of us have it running as Hosted on Linux. The Native version may install but it doesn't currently boot from hard drive. I'm not sure if it's the same for others but I have lots of large and small projects I'm working on and I don't have much spare time for anything. I have updated the BMP Picture Datatype with new save functions and hopefully that will be included in Icaros 2.3.0 as well. I haven't made any commits either, yet. I'm not sure the old SVN system is still working. I believe everything is through Github now. That's where our sources come from.

Here's where my opinion comes in. If we use Microsoft or Apple as an example, Microsoft never abandoned 32bit while working on 64bit, neither did Apple. So why did AROS leadership decide that there would not be active development for ABIv0 because everyone is now working on ABIv1? That has never made any sense to me. When I first started with AROS programming maybe two years ago, I had great difficulty because of this arrangement. I was using Icaros Desktop which was 32bit. I was trying to update picture datatypes even then. But all work was being done for ABIv1 so I didn't have much choice. I didn't have a build system set up for 64bit nor did I have a way to test anything. I was trying to commit changes that would then be compiled with the Nightlies then download the result and test it. That lasted about two weeks before I just completely quit. So rather than write software for AROS and commit to the repository I went off on my own writing my own software for AROS which is mostly graphics programs. Recently the situation changed. I discovered GCC in the shell for Icaros 32bit and with Paolone's help and the help of other skilled developers I have managed to get a build system (cross-compiler) set up. I still intend to update picture datatypes with the code that I have developed over the last couple of years. That's another work-in-progress, and again nothing committed yet on that.

AROS 64bit and AROS 68k and AROS for Raspberry Pi are all currently being worked on. Things aren't going quickly because there aren't many people doing the work. But any help is appreciated if you know about programming. ;-)

As someone said recently and I'm in the same situation: "I'm just a Csharp programmer who is used to Visual Studio". I'm trying to program for AROS, but it ain't easy!

ilBarbax

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Re: The situation
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2019, 01:24:46 PM »
Concerning Wanderer I don't like the window title reflecting the whole path of the window. It is also a duplicate of the path showed on the underneath text box.
I would put in the window title just the latest step of the path leaving the complete path in the text box.
I also do hope to have a button to switch between the different views and show icons/all
The top would be to have the possibility to add buttons to be link to specific dos/arex scripts.

miker1264

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Re: The situation
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2019, 01:31:38 PM »
This new Wanderer thing is a never ending story, we are waiting for the commits to go to main repository for years now (http://www.aros.org/fr/news/archive/2009.php)

There has been many discussions and posts in old Aros-Exec about this and the fact is that current Wanderer isn't worked on or improved because a new Wanderer shall come soon.

Ok. I accept that analysis. I'm relatively new to AROS programming. Some people have been around for a long time and have witnessed many things and many promises that weren't kept. If I have my way, I would assist with getting the new Wanderer up and running for AROS 64bit. I certainly have the desire to help. But I have a general lack of knowledge when it comes to C progrmming for AROS. That's a major obstacle for me, and besides I'm only one person. I can't do everything and be everywhere all at once. I have my own Ideas about how Wanderer should function and that we should be able to use other file managers. One of my ideas, and I'm not sure if it has gotten any attention, is to add a "green button" to the current Wanderer. Standard file requesters have a "parent" button and a "Volumes" button. Wanderer has a blue "parent" button but no green "volumes" button. Here's a screenshot of the buttons I painted as an example:

Adding a simple button would add a lot of functionality. I too have heard "It's not worth updating Wanderer. A new version is coming." Why wait. The current version can be updated incrementally if needed. I don't know how complex the inner workings of it are, but there are certainly some limitations with the current Wanderer. Just yesterday I noticed that Wanderer doesn't handle "unassociated icons" well. If you have some iff icons or png icons in a Wanderer window you can't copy them or delete them if no files are associated with the icons! But Magellan treats them as "files" so with Magellan you can copy or delete unassociated icons quite easily. But even Magellan has issues that I don't like. It's not possible in Name View to delete or copy an icon that is associated with a file without copying or deleting both the icon and the file. Why can't it be done independently? Just a few things I've noticed that I'm not entirely pleased with. :-(
« Last Edit: October 17, 2019, 01:43:08 PM by miker1264 »

miker1264

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Re: The situation
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2019, 01:56:32 PM »
Concerning Wanderer I don't like the window title reflecting the whole path of the window. It is also a duplicate of the path showed on the underneath text box.
I would put in the window title just the latest step of the path leaving the complete path in the text box.
I also do hope to have a button to switch between the different views and show icons/all
The top would be to have the possibility to add buttons to be link to specific dos/arex scripts.


I have also noticed the window title behavior. That might require a little more planning and an update. I agree that it doesn't work quite the way it should.

I certainly like the idea of a "Views" button to swich easily between Name View and Icon View, and I also think there should be a third called "Tile View" which shows Image Thumbnails. I got that idea from Yannick's Picture Requester. Maybe a customizable user menu for Wanderer would allow adding links to dos/arexx scripts. There should be a Tools Menu for favorite apps, a Drawers Menu for favorite locations, and a User Menu for customizations. The added menus can be configured using a Prefs Utility similar to the old ToolManager for Amiga OS 3.x. (I also really like TurboText, but that's another matter).

As for the "Views" button this screenshot is from one of my Csharp programs called VDI Explorer which is a file manager for virtual disk images such as VDI for VirtualBox and VMDK for VMWare. It has a nice explorer type interface and a "views" button on the right side of the toolbar at the top.

Actually I just had a tought about the "views". It should be placed to the left of the blue "parent" button. Maybe a small round white button with two opposing black tringles inside. Wanderer knows which view mode is current. When the user clicks the button the view changes. I really like that idea!!
« Last Edit: October 17, 2019, 02:18:19 PM by miker1264 »

paolone

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Re: The situation
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2019, 03:19:57 PM »
Actually I just had a tought about the "views". It should be placed to the left of the blue "parent" button. Maybe a small round white button with two opposing black tringles inside. Wanderer knows which view mode is current. When the user clicks the button the view changes. I really like that idea!!


Zune (and Amiga in general) has had a very useful gadget for this kind of jobs, Cycle Menus: just add one in the interface and you would end up with a nice alternative to your windows-ish button menu. Something like this (see attachment).[size=78%] [/size]