AROS Exec

Distros => Icaros Desktop => Topic started by: Michael_ on October 27, 2019, 12:16:35 AM

Title: Best Desktop Hardware for AROS/Icaros Desktop
Post by: Michael_ on October 27, 2019, 12:16:35 AM
Im pretty new to Amiga/AROS.
I already stumbled around AmigaOS 4.1 and AmgiaOne X1000/X5000 Systems.
But i feel for what it is, its pretty expensive.

So i tought about building a Computer for AROS/Icaros Desktop.

But:
- What Motherboards are supported?
- If needed what external Sound and Ethernet Cards?
- What graphics Cards are Supported?
- Whats the fastest CPU supportet? How many Cores?
- How many Ram is supported?
- How many and Big HDD/SSD Drives are supported?

Are there some complete Systems supported?
The Hardware listed here isnt very spectacular, also not fully supported in most cases.
http://aros.sourceforge.net/de/documentation/users/hardware.php

Also is AROS/Icaros Desktop fully compatibel with Native Amiga/AmigaOS 4.1 Software?
Title: Re: Best Desktop Hardware for AROS/Icaros Desktop
Post by: miker1264 on October 27, 2019, 01:47:08 AM
For Icaros Desktop Native for a long time I was running it on an HP Elite 8300 Small Form Factor. I had 4GB of installed memory and an 80GB SATA hard drive. Icaros graphics ran in Native driver mode with several supported graphics modes since there was an AROS driver for the Intel GMA onboard graphics. It ran very well on the 8300. I had bought the computer used on ebay for $190.

Here are the specifications for the 8300 SFF.

https://www.cnet.com/products/hp-compaq-elite-8300-core-i5-3470-3-2-ghz-monitor-none-series/
Title: Re: Best Desktop Hardware for AROS/Icaros Desktop
Post by: Michael_ on October 27, 2019, 02:47:32 AM
I did not mention but i would prefer a big form factor. ATX or even bigger.
Simply to have a lot of space in the case and for components i might want to use.
Title: Re: Best Desktop Hardware for AROS/Icaros Desktop
Post by: Argo on October 27, 2019, 10:12:58 AM
Im pretty new to Amiga/AROS.
I already stumbled around AmigaOS 4.1 and AmgiaOne X1000/X5000 Systems.
But i feel for what it is, its pretty expensive.

So i tought about building a Computer for AROS/Icaros Desktop.

But:
- What Motherboards are supported?
Most, but I'd keep it a few years old
Quote
- If needed what external Sound and Ethernet Cards?
Aetheros base should be a good bet
Quote
- What graphics Cards are Supported?
Previous generation Geforce and Radeon, 3D only on Geforce
Here's a topic on Graphics cards
Quote
- Whats the fastest CPU supportet? How many Cores?
How fast you want? Only one core gets used   AROS64/SMP uses all cores, but is alpha, so not stable, still in development, and doesn't run the current 32bit software - needs recompile
Quote
- How many Ram is supported?
4GB, AROS64 will allow as much as modern PCs, but see above
Quote
- How many and Big HDD/SSD Drives are supported?
A normal amount, can't see the need for more than two or three, partitions are limited to 128GB
Quote

Are there some complete Systems supported?
Not that I know of, at one time someone was selling a computer specifical build to run AROS
Quote
The Hardware listed here isnt very spectacular, also not fully supported in most cases.
http://aros.sourceforge.net/de/documentation/users/hardware.php

Also is AROS/Icaros Desktop fully compatibel with Native Amiga/AmigaOS 4.1 Software?
No, It's source compatible with Amiga OS 3.1    Though AROS 68K is binary compatible


I'm in the same boat   Reviving my old AROS system and installing it in a Checkmate case  Looking to upgrade that early next year
So, am reviewing what might be newly compatible hardware since then
I have had Icaros Desktop running natively on an old ASUS i5-3210 laptop   Can't remember if the WiFi worked or if that was the new Lenovo i5-7600 laptop with that issue

My old system sans case running Icaros Desktop 1.4.5
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Uxk7GgJQfkbaCBje9
Title: Re: Best Desktop Hardware for AROS/Icaros Desktop
Post by: ntromans on October 27, 2019, 11:08:54 AM
Just to say that if running anything based on ABI0 (i.e. current Icaros), stay clear of any motherboard with USB 3 - I've tried on four different systems with USB 3 and on every one the USB would not work and no amount of fiddling with bios settings helped.

Cheers,
Nigel.
Title: Re: Best Desktop Hardware for AROS/Icaros Desktop
Post by: Michael_ on October 27, 2019, 08:18:08 PM
Quote
How fast you want? Only one core gets used   AROS64/SMP uses all cores, but is alpha, so not stable, still in development, and doesn't run the current 32bit software - needs recompile
Quote

Well i did not knew that.
I thought it would at least support 2 Cores as AmigaOS 4.1.

So it might be worth to wait a little longer until AROS64 is stable?
Will they implement 32bit App Support in AROS64 like you can run 32bit Applications in 64bit Versions of Windows?

Quote
A normal amount, can't see the need for more than two or three, partitions are limited to 128GB

Asking because i have some unused drives with 1TB or more lying around.
Will this limit be greater with AROS64?
But SSDs work, right?

Quote
No, It's source compatible with Amiga OS 3.1    Though AROS 68K is binary compatible

So that means basically every Amiga OS 3.1 / 4.1 Software runs.
But needs to be recompiled, right?
Title: Re: Best Desktop Hardware for AROS/Icaros Desktop
Post by: cavemann on October 27, 2019, 10:19:34 PM
@ Michael_

Have you tried booting the Icaros DVD on hardware that you already have? If if boots, you don't have to install anything and you would get a better idea if AROS is for you, before buying any hardware. ;)
Title: Re: Best Desktop Hardware for AROS/Icaros Desktop
Post by: Michael_ on October 27, 2019, 10:58:26 PM
I tried to Boot/Install Icaros Desktop on my old Fujitsu Siemens Scaleo X which came with Vista originally and got a Core 2 Quad CPU.
It did not work.
I just came to grub screen, it did not boot any further from there.
Title: Re: Best Desktop Hardware for AROS/Icaros Desktop
Post by: cavemann on October 28, 2019, 12:26:41 AM
Hmm, If AROS does not recognize your video system, it should automatically boot with VESA video drivers. What video does this machine have?

Also, grub should display some options. Have you tried options other than the default option? There might be a DMA problem.
Title: Re: Best Desktop Hardware for AROS/Icaros Desktop
Post by: Michael_ on October 28, 2019, 01:14:55 AM
I am currently testing Windows 10 on this Machine.
According to Windows 10 its a GeForce 9500 GT.

Yes i tried some other options, they also do not work.
Title: Re: Best Desktop Hardware for AROS/Icaros Desktop
Post by: miker1264 on October 28, 2019, 03:39:47 AM
I checked the specs of the Fujitsu Scaleo X. It has a socket 478 at 3GHz and max 4GB ram. It may run Win 10 but barely.

What version of Icaros Desktop are you trying to run on this computer?
Title: Re: Best Desktop Hardware for AROS/Icaros Desktop
Post by: Michael_ on October 28, 2019, 04:09:24 AM
I downloaded Icaros Live 2.2.8
Do you think the graphics card is the reason it does not run?
If so, What graphics card do you recommend?

Im just testing Windows 10.
But its really a bunch of crap in my opinion.
To be more precise: A bunch of crap set on top of a good operating system.
Title: Re: Best Desktop Hardware for AROS/Icaros Desktop
Post by: salvo on October 28, 2019, 05:48:07 AM
i have on hp z600 workstation with nvidia gtx 470, full working, the graphics card working alone on 1024x768 but i played at quake with the rygels texture, horewer the all games working fine that nvidia 6200 with 512 mb di ram, resolutio on scren 1680x1050.

hi
Title: Re: Best Desktop Hardware for AROS/Icaros Desktop
Post by: Argo on October 28, 2019, 07:04:10 AM
I am currently testing Windows 10 on this Machine.
According to Windows 10 its a GeForce 9500 GT.

Yes i tried some other options, they also do not work.

My current hardware config has an EVGA GeForce 9500 GT
https://photos.app.goo.gl/hbkQCHiYsD8EPpD56

Quote
So it might be worth to wait a little longer until AROS64 is stable?
Will they implement 32bit App Support in AROS64 like you can run 32bit Applications in 64bit Versions of Windows?

AROS64/SMP is going to take a while to be stable  Its ABI isn't exactly finalized   Current AROS32 ABI0 is stable and mature, best to use for now
32bit will very likely not be implemented, the dev team isn't that big   Also, Linux and BSDs are all going 64bit only   So, recompiling and modification is the will be the only way to use older software on AROS64   The same will be true soon enough for Linux and BSDs, as mentioned     MS is a huge corporation with just as many resources, so it's not an issue for Window  You can even still enable 16bit support in Windows 10 

Quote
Asking because i have some unused drives with 1TB or more lying around.
Will this limit be greater with AROS64?
But SSDs work, right?

It will be greater under AROS64  As big as you can use under current 64bit OSs
Like when Windows was 32bit, you couldn't use more that 3 to 5 GB of RAM or more than 4GB partition
Yes, SATA devices work like SSDs
Title: Re: Best Desktop Hardware for AROS/Icaros Desktop
Post by: Michael_ on October 28, 2019, 07:13:21 AM
So why do you think it does not run/boot?
Title: Re: Best Desktop Hardware for AROS/Icaros Desktop
Post by: Argo on October 28, 2019, 07:24:49 AM
Is your BIOS in UEFI mode or Legacy mode
Is secureboot off
Title: Re: Best Desktop Hardware for AROS/Icaros Desktop
Post by: Michael_ on October 28, 2019, 07:28:12 AM
That computer came with Vista originally.
I dont think it has UEFI/Secure Boot.
Title: Re: Best Desktop Hardware for AROS/Icaros Desktop
Post by: Argo on October 28, 2019, 07:32:42 AM
Do you get any boot errors
if so are they the same no matter that boot option you choose
Title: Re: Best Desktop Hardware for AROS/Icaros Desktop
Post by: Michael_ on October 28, 2019, 07:36:00 AM
I get a black screen with a few colored stripes no matter what boot option i choose.
Title: Re: Best Desktop Hardware for AROS/Icaros Desktop
Post by: mcguire on October 28, 2019, 04:05:28 PM
It could be the 3D-Card. In the boot option are options for 3D oder Vesa. Maybe grub configuration hides more information. Going into edit mode with the e key clarafies the options.
Title: Re: Best Desktop Hardware for AROS/Icaros Desktop
Post by: salvo on October 28, 2019, 05:51:35 PM
I think you can't boot from that machine aros is not perfect it can happen that on some computer it doesn't work for any reason
Title: Re: Best Desktop Hardware for AROS/Icaros Desktop
Post by: cavemann on October 29, 2019, 12:54:11 AM
@ Michael_

If you were getting a totally black screen, I would guess that the output was going elsewhere. But since you're getting some garbage, it's hard to figure, because the 9500 usually works with AROS. And you've tried the different grub options.

If you make your grub selection then hold down the space key, an early startup screen should display after several seconds. But if you still get a black screen, Who can say if it's the video or something else? Do you have another video card you can try?

It might be possible to get it running with an old version of Icaros (before 2.0)  but that would not be totally compatible with today's software. :(

Btw, The Icaros Desktop pdf is a good read for new (and old) AROS users.
Title: Re: Best Desktop Hardware for AROS/Icaros Desktop
Post by: Michael_ on October 29, 2019, 01:41:31 AM
I now tried an old HP Z400.
After Grub i come to screen "Waiting for Bootable Media".
It does not boot any further from there.

Why is that?
The Iso is working in VirtualBox.

PS:
How long do you think will it take for the 64bit Version to become stable?
Title: Re: Best Desktop Hardware for AROS/Icaros Desktop
Post by: miker1264 on October 29, 2019, 04:26:04 AM
I now tried an old HP Z400.
After Grub i come to screen "Waiting for Bootable Media".
It does not boot any further from there.

Why is that?
The Iso is working in VirtualBox.

PS:
How long do you think will it take for the 64bit Version to become stable?

That seems odd. In order to get to the grub menu it had to boot from the disk. Does grub list screenmodes? Can you post a screenshot of the message?

Here is the sequence when I boot using 2.2.8 disk: First there is a screen full of text, then the grub menu appears. Only some items are shown. I believe there is also "Advanced Features" or something like that. That has a menu with more screenmodes. Choose the resolution and type of graphics that fit your system. Once you've made your selection it should load into the Icaros Desktop and one item should say "Install AROS". That's one way to know if you're in the Live DVD.
Title: Re: Best Desktop Hardware for AROS/Icaros Desktop
Post by: Michael_ on October 29, 2019, 05:41:12 AM
Finally it works.
On Computer Number 4. An old Samsung Laptop with Core 2 Duo.

Well i think it would be a Smart move to wait until the 64bit Version is Stable to build a Computer for AROS.
Simply because of the bigger amounts of cpu cores, ram and hdd/partition size it will support. :)
Anyone know how long this will approx take? months? a year? years?

I think at the moment i will run it on that laptop or in virtualbox.
Title: Re: Best Desktop Hardware for AROS/Icaros Desktop
Post by: Argo on October 29, 2019, 08:17:05 AM
Build an Aros based Amiga computer from scrap by Stephen Jones
 
Three builds, each more advanced than the last

Part 1 : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttylXRD1S1I
Part 2 : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJchPfJgaxk
Part 3 : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCs9lysH5IM

He should be doing a fundraising campaign later this year or early next to help get AROS running on top end components like Ryzen APUs and Full SATA support
Title: Re: Best Desktop Hardware for AROS/Icaros Desktop
Post by: cavemann on October 29, 2019, 10:51:01 PM
@ Michael_

Oops, I forgot to mention one thing...

Welcome to Aros-Exec  :)
Title: Re: Best Desktop Hardware for AROS/Icaros Desktop
Post by: miker1264 on October 30, 2019, 12:46:37 AM
Finally it works.
On Computer Number 4. An old Samsung Laptop with Core 2 Duo.

Well i think it would be a Smart move to wait until the 64bit Version is Stable to build a Computer for AROS.
Simply because of the bigger amounts of cpu cores, ram and hdd/partition size it will support. :)
Anyone know how long this will approx take? months? a year? years?

I think at the moment i will run it on that laptop or in virtualbox.

Icaros Desktop 64bit does work now as Hosted on Linux but it lacks software. Some parts need to fixed up a little but it is stable enough to use.

The Native version of Icaros 64bit still has some issues that make it less useful.

So it's a matter of months rather than years before we have a 64bit version of Icaros ISO ready to be downloaded and installed.

We are getting there...slowly.

Title: Re: Best Desktop Hardware for AROS/Icaros Desktop
Post by: Argo on October 30, 2019, 01:13:07 AM
I get a black screen with a few colored stripes no matter what boot option i choose.

Like in this video
https://youtu.be/OCs9lysH5IM?t=903

Did you shutdown at that point or wait and if so how long did you wait
Title: Re: Best Desktop Hardware for AROS/Icaros Desktop
Post by: magorium on October 30, 2019, 09:25:31 AM
@ Michael_

If you were getting a totally black screen, I would guess that the output was going elsewhere. But since you're getting some garbage, it's hard to figure, because the 9500 usually works with AROS. And you've tried the different grub options.
This looks like (as in i believe this is) the same "problem" i have with one of my systems in that the video card is recognized (tries to open a native screen) but not recognized 100% correctly enough for the driver to be able to show a full picture. AROS boots fine (boot-chime works, machine is pingable after proper setup) (*) just incorrect video output which shows itselfs by a couple of distinct red, green and/or blue (horizontal tilted) stripes (as if using a complete wrong modulo but only for a couple of lines).

If that's the only issue then it is solvable by booting in vesa mode. Try to figure out (can use linux for that) pci product code, product id and especially revision and perhaps check against the hardware compatibility list ?

(*) although i also got a choke-on-boot experience with similar hardware showing the same symptoms (but that could perhaps also have been caused by (additional) internal HD or sata driver related issues, sorry as i can't remember what it was exactly)
Title: Re: Best Desktop Hardware for AROS/Icaros Desktop
Post by: magorium on October 30, 2019, 09:37:57 AM
Well i think it would be a Smart move to wait until the 64bit Version is Stable to build a Computer for AROS.
Simply because of the bigger amounts of cpu cores, ram and hdd/partition size it will support. :)
Could become a long wait ....

And then what to do with all those cores ... software that automagically becomes multi-threaded ? (i wonder how many old-forum-threads is going to be repeated till death :-) )

Quote
I think at the moment i will run it on that laptop or in virtualbox.
If you wish for multi-core aros then i would suggest to run as many virtual machines as your hw (throw in a threadripper or two just for lolz) can produce and perhaps start working on a ipc protocol ?

At last that way you would be using the hardware as intended. It is not only you but also others that mention ridiculous specs for running AROS when in such cases you are far better of running AROS hosted or virtualized on such capable hardware (at least to be able to get the full potential out of things).
Title: Re: Best Desktop Hardware for AROS/Icaros Desktop
Post by: magorium on October 30, 2019, 10:04:21 AM
I get a black screen with a few colored stripes no matter what boot option i choose.

Like in this video
https://youtu.be/OCs9lysH5IM?t=903 (https://youtu.be/OCs9lysH5IM?t=903)
fwiw: that looks pretty close as to my experience although the video seem to show dstinct 'distorted' bars. My symptoms did not resemble bars, just (single pixel) lines but the position of the bars (in opposite to my tilted lines) seem to match pretty close.

Quote
Did you shutdown at that point or wait and if so how long did you wait
also fwiw: in case a) it really choked (two hours is more than enough) while case b) just ran without any meaningful output on screen (while the system seem to have booted fine according to the chimes and eventually achieving ping status when network setup properly).
Title: Re: Best Desktop Hardware for AROS/Icaros Desktop
Post by: salvo on November 05, 2019, 07:37:53 PM
Michel on hp Z400 of default use for hd sata mode, you enter on bios and change the drive specification on emulated ide befor work fina, also my z600 is it
Title: Re: Best Desktop Hardware for AROS/Icaros Desktop
Post by: Michael_ on November 05, 2019, 10:33:20 PM
Michel on hp Z400 of default use for hd sata mode, you enter on bios and change the drive specification on emulated ide befor work fina, also my z600 is it

Thank you i will try that out.

Im pretty busy at the moment due to microsoft ends support for windows 7 on 14.January 2020.
im trying to replace it but not really happy with the obvious alternatives (Linux, OSx, Windows 10)
So i am Seeing my self almost forced to upgrade to Windows 10.

Im really hoping AROS64 becomes an alternative in the future, at least to linux. (on the desktop)
You know i like an old fashioned OS that puts you in to full control.
And offline installation of drivers and software.
Not that dependency crap from linux or dumb app stores and the like.
Title: Re: Best Desktop Hardware for AROS/Icaros Desktop
Post by: salvo on November 05, 2019, 10:53:00 PM
i it seems that microsoft wants to abandon appstore, however the term for windows 7 seems to me 2024, I was told this by a server administrator
Title: Re: Best Desktop Hardware for AROS/Icaros Desktop
Post by: Michael_ on November 05, 2019, 11:10:18 PM
Windows 10 also automatically installs and updates some drivers and Software.
There are workarounds for this but not 100% how well they work yet. (Still have to try that out)
Title: Re: Best Desktop Hardware for AROS/Icaros Desktop
Post by: miker1264 on November 06, 2019, 12:09:51 AM
i it seems that microsoft wants to abandon appstore, however the term for windows 7 seems to me 2024, I was told this by a server administrator

Just because Microsoft ends supportfor Windows 7 that just means no more official updates. You can continue to use it and it will work just fine. Micosoft will try to force you to update with nagging reminders though.
Title: Re: Best Desktop Hardware for AROS/Icaros Desktop
Post by: Michael_ on November 06, 2019, 01:41:48 AM
I know but doing online banking and stuff on an unsupported OS? dont know. :D
Title: Re: Best Desktop Hardware for AROS/Icaros Desktop
Post by: salvo on November 06, 2019, 12:00:04 PM
I when I installed windows 7 sp1 then I blocked updates, windows defender is great, but I also installed immunet antivirus that is free and comes from clam, then the browsers are always up to date and it is not better to save passwords on the sites of importance and of relevance with paypal I always go safe
Title: Re: Best Desktop Hardware for AROS/Icaros Desktop
Post by: Michael_ on November 06, 2019, 08:24:40 PM
Im not using 3th. party anti virus software since years.
Because it always detects files as virus or blocks websites that are NOT dangerous.
The last time i had a free anti virus installed it prevented me to copy files from one hdd to another because it thought some files are malware which in fact was not the case.
But thumbs up i never had trouble with windows 7 defender and so that is what i am using at the moment.

So not really sure if it is enough to have an up to date browser and know what you're doing. :)
But 0patch offers security updates until 2023 maybe i should go for that.
Title: Re: Best Desktop Hardware for AROS/Icaros Desktop
Post by: salvo on November 06, 2019, 09:31:54 PM
I understand, however on immunet you can disable some features for example when installing or going to programs
Title: Re: Best Desktop Hardware for AROS/Icaros Desktop
Post by: salvo on November 06, 2019, 09:39:05 PM
after sp1 there's nothing believe me, just a few patches
Title: Re: Best Desktop Hardware for AROS/Icaros Desktop
Post by: grhmhome on November 15, 2019, 10:59:26 AM
For Icaros Desktop Native for a long time I was running it on an HP Elite 8300 Small Form Factor. I had 4GB of installed memory and an 80GB SATA hard drive. Icaros graphics ran in Native driver mode with several supported graphics modes since there was an AROS driver for the Intel GMA onboard graphics. It ran very well on the 8300. I had bought the computer used on ebay for $190.

I found one on ebay for a decent price. Would the onboard graphics support a 1080p monitor? I want a AROS compatible computer.
Title: Re: Best Desktop Hardware for AROS/Icaros Desktop
Post by: salvo on November 15, 2019, 02:16:37 PM
yes man
Title: Re: Best Desktop Hardware for AROS/Icaros Desktop
Post by: salvo on November 15, 2019, 02:27:44 PM
but really good one system with nvidia graphics, you thinked ;)
Title: Re: Best Desktop Hardware for AROS/Icaros Desktop
Post by: x-vision on November 15, 2019, 09:55:09 PM
Right now isn't maybe the best moment to buy an Aros system, as an update of Abi1 64bits is around the corner with many substantial updates, so better wait to see which hardware is better supported and then it will be the best time to buy a compatible setup to support this branch and also report bugs to devs.
Title: Re: Best Desktop Hardware for AROS/Icaros Desktop
Post by: grhmhome on November 16, 2019, 07:07:36 AM
yes man

I bought one, now I just need to wait for my package.
Title: Re: Best Desktop Hardware for AROS/Icaros Desktop
Post by: salvo on November 16, 2019, 07:55:03 AM
x-vision, for the moment it is not better to think about abiv1 if you want to use a functional system, at least I turn to those who use aros every day as those who use windows etc..., then continue to exit new applications for abiv0 and this is a good reason to use it :D
Title: Re: Best Desktop Hardware for AROS/Icaros Desktop
Post by: miker1264 on November 16, 2019, 03:39:56 PM
If you use the 8300 SFF you can use up to 4gb memory? And install Icaros Desktop 32bit. It works well.
Title: Re: Best Desktop Hardware for AROS/Icaros Desktop
Post by: salvo on November 16, 2019, 07:35:35 PM
and if you have a pci-e slot maybe is well to install a nvidia card
Title: Re: Best Desktop Hardware for AROS/Icaros Desktop
Post by: grhmhome on November 17, 2019, 01:44:15 PM
That is my plan, to get a nvidia card that is compatible, like a 8xxx or a 4xx series card.
Title: Re: Best Desktop Hardware for AROS/Icaros Desktop
Post by: salvo on November 17, 2019, 04:13:08 PM
I had a 470 but I couldn't go beyond resolution 1024x768, I know they are compatible but this thing left me puzzled.
I have an 8500 GT same result, I took the 8400 GS because in the past I had tried it and it was fine.
Now I have a resolution of 1680x1050, the maximum that can support my monitor.
Even a 6xxx is fine is the minimum required, as the minimum to play some 3D games are 512 mb of ram.
Title: Re: Best Desktop Hardware for AROS/Icaros Desktop
Post by: grhmhome on November 17, 2019, 06:02:20 PM
I ended up buying a working 8400 GS for less than 15 USD on ebay. I should be good to go with my setup.
Title: Re: Best Desktop Hardware for AROS/Icaros Desktop
Post by: salvo on November 17, 2019, 07:16:11 PM
actually all software run fine with this card, minimun requirement is geforce 6xxx with 512 mb, that this run fine also doom 3 bfg edition