Sorry, many question.

mph · 1439

mph

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on: December 16, 2021, 05:00:52 PM
Hey all,
I've installed and used Aros many times (native i386). Tested it on a Wyse Cx0 today. Everything works but the ethernet (no builtin wifi). I just haven't gotten around to asking deeper questions until now. I've skimmed through the site. But I don't think it had the answers I was looking for.

So here goes,

How far has the protected memory development come along? The site mentions it. But I don't know if it has been updated in a while.

Can Aros build itself? Just wondering if I need to dual boot or not.

What are the actual system requirements? Its not actually i386 is it? Does a system need PAE or SSE?

If it required something like SSE, is that something that can be changed when building?

Is multitasking cooperative? Or preemptive-ish?

Is there any task priority control?

Is there some documentation of the AmigaShell?

How would one go about changing a MSR value, before the the privilege is lost?

Does the bootloader have to be GRUB? Could Syslinux be setup, after install?

During boot, has any one ever encountered just the word "grub" and no further boot progress?

Is there support for parallel and serial ports? If so, can direct access be achieved (like with Dos/Win3x)?

Is midi supported though USB or just software emulated? If it isn't just software emulated, is it supported through ports other than USB?

Can an ISO be mounted?

Is there a recently compiled Software ISO library?

Does anyone actively use the p2p software for Amiga/Aros (other than IRC)?

What is the difference between AmigaShell and AROS-Shell?

Has there always been an error when you quit Wanderer?

Can you launch a shell without Wanderer?

If you need at least one shell open to open programs with workbench, is there an escape option? Like adding & to a command in linux bash.

Can you add shell commands at boot?

Can you disable Wanderer startup at boot?

I guess that's it, for now. I know I've asked a lot. But others will be able to search it up now.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2021, 05:11:59 PM by mph »

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AMIGASYSTEM

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Reply #1 on: December 16, 2021, 05:21:41 PM
Hey all,
I've installed and used Aros many times (native i386). Tested it on a Wyse Cx0 today. Everything works but the ethernet (no builtin wifi). I just haven't gotten around to asking deeper questions until now. I've skimmed through the site. But I don't think it had the answers I was looking for.

So here goes,

Hi mph and welcome to aros-exc, I'll see if I can answer some of your questions, maybe someone can answer the rest of the questions.

Quote
How far has the protected memory development come along? The site mentions it. But I don't know if it has been updated in a while.

I think it is partially

Quote
Can Aros build itself? Just wondering if I need to dual boot or not

AROS x86 can be installed directly on PC Hardware or in DualBoot, in this case you need to know how to do it to avoid deleting the other OSes

Quote
What are the actual system requirements? Its not actually i386 is it? Does a system need PAE or SSE?

Find all requirements on compatible hardware HERE

Quote
Is there some documentation of the AmigaShell?

HERE you can find the FAQ of AmigaDOS

Quote
During boot, has any one ever encountered just the word "grub" and no further boot progress?

Yes but it is a native AROS GRUB no Linux GRUB

Quote
Is there support for parallel and serial ports? If so, can direct access be achieved (like with Dos/Win3x)?

I think so, I haven't tested it yet

Quote
Is midi supported though USB or just software emulated? If it isn't just software emulated, is it supported through ports other than USB?

In Emulation it works, it should also work on real PC if the hardware is supported

Quote
Can an ISO be mounted?

Yes you can mount ISO, Floppy in various Filesystems



salvo

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Reply #2 on: December 16, 2021, 05:50:02 PM
I don't think about modern computers you can install Aros this because it does not have the SATA support and if from the BIOS you can't enable the legacy emulation or IDE you can't do anything, unless you start the system via usb, on key or external hard drive, currently I have an intel core duo 2, I know is a dated configuration but everything works perfectly, if I could do a dual boot with windows.
In the past I used the stupendous XEON workstations of the HP Series Z, Z400 and Z600, Aros uses only a processor core so these options are too expansive, it does not support the PAE and therefore maximum memory can be used 4 GB, as a card Graphics I currently have a NVIDIA GeForce 210 512 MB works very well and apart from GL games there is no software that exploits them.

IcarosDesktop on HP Z400 Workstation


mph

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Reply #3 on: December 16, 2021, 06:12:07 PM
Hi mph and welcome to aros-exc, I'll see if I can answer some of your questions, maybe someone can answer the rest of the questions.

Thanks for the Welcome! Thanks for your answers, too. I will reply to some of them, to help clarify.

Quote
Q. Can Aros build itself? Just wondering if I need to dual boot or not.

A. AROS x86 can be installed directly on PC Hardware or in DualBoot, in this case you need to know how to do it to avoid deleting the other OSes

Yes, Aros dual boots great.

I might need to dual boot, but only if Aros cannot build (compile) itself. Then I would need to boot to something else, anytime I wanted to compile Aros, and then back again to test it.

Quote
Q. What are the actual system requirements? Its not actually i386 is it? Does a system need PAE or SSE?

A. Find all requirements on compatible hardware HERE

By some of the machines listed, that does answer much of my question. I noticed a Pentium II in there (i686). But I am more specifically looking to see which members of the x86 family are supported. For example a 386, Pentium, Pentium pro. And I suppose I'm curious what CPU feature are supported. But I am less concerned about that.

Quote
Q. Is there some documentation of the AmigaShell?

A. HERE you can find the FAQ of AmigaDOS

That might answer some of my other questions. It just depends how much of that was implemented in Aros.

Quote
Q. Is midi supported though USB or just software emulated? If it isn't just software emulated, is it supported through ports other than USB?

A. In Emulation it works, it should also work on real PC if the hardware is supported

By Emulation, I mean midi output via Timidity; or something like that. For older midi hardware you need to connect out and/or in through older style midi connectors; either via some USB to midi hardware bridge or a soundcard's joystick port (if the card has midi support). Most newer midi devices are USB to USB.

« Last Edit: December 16, 2021, 06:20:10 PM by mph »

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AMIGASYSTEM

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Reply #4 on: December 16, 2021, 06:28:15 PM

Yes, Aros dual boots great.

You can see my AROS/Win10 DualBoot in this link:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1TaRVsm2B8KmRfb8J13_PJKX4Pz-9HV7C/view

Quote
That might answer some of my other questions. It just depends how much of that was implemented in Aros.

AROS is based on OS 3.1 then there are the implementations of Wanderer that is based on the Workbench, in line of principle as commands does not change anything compared to OS3

Quote
Q. Is midi supported though USB or just software emulated? If it isn't just software emulated, is it supported through ports other than USB?

MIDI Files are supported both via software "Timidity" and via hardware, I attach a recent video of mine with AROS One 68k (same AROS x86 functions), the Hardware MIDI is emulated by WinUAE, download the small video file from here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bVbITs1XHwTZ9oeheaTLiGVVBJgk1q5Y/view


mph

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Reply #5 on: December 16, 2021, 06:31:05 PM
I don't think about modern computers you can install Aros this because it does not have the SATA support and if from the BIOS you can't enable the legacy emulation or IDE you can't do anything, unless you start the system via usb, on key or external hard drive, currently I have an intel core duo 2, I know is a dated configuration but everything works perfectly, if I could do a dual boot with windows.
In the past I used the stupendous XEON workstations of the HP Series Z, Z400 and Z600, Aros uses only a processor core so these options are too expansive, it does not support the PAE and therefore maximum memory can be used 4 GB, as a card Graphics I currently have a NVIDIA GeForce 210 512 MB works very well and apart from GL games there is no software that exploits them.

Hey Savlo! Thanks for working on a Distro. Its great to see another one.

I have two HP Z440 towers. Got them for free, but haven't used them. Most of my machines are !!very!! dated. To post this, I'm using a PentiumM Toughbook CF-29 (1.6ghz). Thanks for the info on the PAE. That means it may boot on a i586. Most of the machines I intend to use would need software rendered GL. So probably no N64 emulation for me.

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mph

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Reply #6 on: December 16, 2021, 06:38:53 PM
MIDI Files are supported both via software "Timidity" and via hardware, I attach a recent video of mine with AROS One 68k (same AROS x86 functions), the Hardware MIDI is emulated by WinUAE, download the small video file from here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bVbITs1XHwTZ9oeheaTLiGVVBJgk1q5Y/view

Thats great!

I forgot who I was talking to. I've used your Distro too. Thanks for the hard work. Plenty of nice music software on there.

I'm 99.9~% fatalist. I couldn't tell you where the rest comes from?


salvo

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Reply #7 on: December 16, 2021, 07:09:26 PM
yes work to another distribution thanks, currently unfortunately we have no rendering software belonged to povray 3.6.1, as far as the midi are concerned, there is only timidity for reproducing harmonyplayer files makes use of it, ah there is no MIDI editor that works At the moment, the current USB system does not direct the MIDI protocol as it should

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salvo

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Reply #8 on: December 16, 2021, 07:15:59 PM
We have an essential DAW AudioEvolution 4 and also a Drum Machine PXDRUM, the best tracker Protrekkr software is quite professional :)

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mph

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Reply #9 on: December 16, 2021, 07:53:23 PM
the current USB system does not direct the MIDI protocol as it should

That might be interesting to implement. Or try to implement. I haven't written any protocol or hardware code.

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magorium

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Reply #10 on: December 16, 2021, 07:54:04 PM
Hi mph, and welcome.


Quote
How far has the protected memory development come along? The site mentions it. But I don't know if it has been updated in a while.
afaik It has not been updated. Memory protection is a big word btw. It is more a basic protection, not memory protection as is used in modern day era/wording.


Quote
Can Aros build itself? Just wondering if I need to dual boot or not.
Yes. If not then it is considered a bug :-)

But it is far easier to develop Aros on another system, as AROS can be a bit unstable at times and lacks a few tools to make life easier.


For instance there is even axrt (from deadwood) that let's you compile AROS software on *nix and let it run natively there as well.

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What are the actual system requirements? Its not actually i386 is it? Does a system need PAE or SSE?
68020, armv6 (or is it even lower ? dunno), ppc, i386. Which flavour you wish answered ? It does not need PAE or afaik SSE.

edit: AROS is compiled for 32 or 64 bit and inherits its corresponding limitations.

Quote
If it required something like SSE, is that something that can be changed when building?
The AROS sources are available so if you wish to compile it with or without certain processor specific features then you should be able to (provided that you know what you are doing/am able to fix any issues that might pop up)


Quote
Is multitasking cooperative? Or preemptive-ish?
afaik cooperative


(whoopsie) I meant preemptive.

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Is there any task priority control?
yes, you can set a task to a certain priority at least when started. See the taskmanager to see information on priorities (snoopy)

Quote
Is there some documentation of the AmigaShell?
Keep in mind that Aros has an extended shell in comparison with the classic AmigaShell.

If not mistaken then you can type help <name of command> in a shell to get a gui popup explaining the command (courtesy of Mazze)


There is also a pdf distributed with Icaros Desktop that explain the dos commands.


further reads:
Using Aros by the shell -> http://www.aros.org/documentation/users/shell/index.php

Aros DOS commands -> https://en.m.wikibooks.org/wiki/Aros/User/DOS
AmigaOS4.x amigados -> https://wiki.amigaos.net/wiki/AmigaOS_Manual:_AmigaDOS


Besides those Aros also supports the n*x shell sh (you can invoke it from the commandline, not sure if development tools need to be installed though)


Quote
How would one go about changing a MSR value, before the the privilege is lost?
I have no idea. Perhaps a AROS OS developer is able to answer that for you.


Quote
Does the bootloader have to be GRUB? Could Syslinux be setup, after install?
GRUB2 or uboot afaik and uboot because some hardware depends on it.


Quote
During boot, has any one ever encountered just the word "grub" and no further boot progress?
yes :-)


Quote
Is there support for parallel and serial ports? If so, can direct access be achieved (like with Dos/Win3x)?
At least for serial. I do not have experience with addressing the parallelport. Classic OS supported the parallelport so it should work (tm)


Quote
Is midi supported though USB or just software emulated? If it isn't just software emulated, is it supported through ports other than USB?
not afaik. I seem to remember that fellow Aros user Dizzy once worked on/at the USB stack, but i can't remember if that included midi.


There is midi support within the OS, but i do not know for sure to what extend.


Quote
Can an ISO be mounted?
Yes, either manually by a mountlist or by a special GUI tool (which name eludes me atm)


Quote
Is there a recently compiled Software ISO library?
No sure what you mean there. A custom software library ? or one provided by the Aros OS ?


fwiw, i program in Pascal and use the iso lib that is written in native pascal so that i am able to manipulate.extract iso files programmatically.
I'm confident there is such a 'library' around somewhere for c as well.

Quote
Does anyone actively use the p2p software for Amiga/Aros (other than IRC)?
hmz, not sure if i would qualify irc as p2p. Files can be exchanged by any network protocol (ftp/samba/http).


Quote
What is the difference between AmigaShell and AROS-Shell?
Aros shell should behave exactly the same as classic AmigaShell and add some extra things (improvements/bugfixes) on top of that.


Quote
Has there always been an error when you quit Wanderer?
Any workbench that you quit would produce such an error because when you quit wanderer (just a workbench) you are literally asking the "gui" to quit.


But perhaps you expected something else to happen ?


Quote
Can you launch a shell without Wanderer?
Yes. you can do that directly from the startup-sequence. And if you like omit starting a workbench alltogether.


Quote
If you need at least one shell open to open programs with workbench, is there an escape option? Like adding & to a command in linux bash.
I am not sure what exactly you are asking there (i'm a bit tired, so please forgive me).


Quote
Can you add shell commands at boot?
Yes,. You can launch complete (custom) shell script if you would like so. The startup-sequence will be launched first (located in s directory) and
somewhere in there the user startup is executed.


Quote
Can you disable Wanderer startup at boot?
Yes, just omit it or replace it inside the startup-sequence with something else that is more to your liking.


Quote
I guess that's it, for now. I know I've asked a lot. But others will be able to search it up now.
A lot of questions indeed :-)


In case you wish to know more just ask, although i am not a system developer so am nort always able to answer things that are deeply embedded into the os.


edit: typos and some further clarity.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2021, 09:24:59 PM by magorium »



salvo

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Reply #11 on: December 16, 2021, 08:12:45 PM
the current USB system does not direct the MIDI protocol as it should

That might be interesting to implement. Or try to implement. I haven't written any protocol or hardware code.

The problem is the interface that manages the USB, it should have been corrected in the X64 version of Aros which is currently not available, MIDI software would be and also a programmer willing to make everything usable but if you do not make the corrections due You can't go ahead, we had a discussion with Bars & Pipes Manteiner the Midi sequencer brought precisely by it

« Last Edit: December 16, 2021, 08:23:23 PM by salvo »

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miker1264

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Reply #12 on: December 16, 2021, 09:33:57 PM
What was the name of the Bars n Pipes Author again?

Alfred Faust maybe? I seem to remember he kept asking for assistance with the CAMD system but no one was willing to help. I didn't know anything about it so I couldn't help him.



mph

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Reply #13 on: December 16, 2021, 10:51:51 PM
Magorium, thank you for the reply, as well.

I'll clarify the unclear questions. And remark about things.

Yes. If not then it is considered a bug :-)

Glad to hear it.

Quote
Q. What are the actual system requirements? Its not actually i386 is it? Does a system need PAE or SSE?
A. 68020, armv6 (or is it even lower ? dunno), ppc, i386. Which flavour you wish answered ? It does not need PAE or afaik SSE.

I'll clarify this one much better.

For the Amiga, there is a history (family) of MPUs that started with the MC68000. From there you had the MC68010, MC68020, etc. Some things compiled for the MC68020 cannot be ran on the MC68000.

For the Intel family of CPUs, people often say i386; when they really probably mean x86. I remember back in the early 90's most people just said i386 for every common consumer Intel CPU. But eventually the distinction became more important. For example, modern Linux can not run on i386. Support for i386 was dropped at the end of 2012. Debian still offers a i486 kernel. But many Distros, that still support x86, only support i686. With i686 support, you can use Pentium Pro, Pentium II, and newer. But you cannot use a PentiumMMX. Many modern operating systems only support x86_64. They dropped support for the x86 family of CPUs.

In the list of Aros tested computers, I noticed at least one computer with a Pentium II. I don't know how long ago that was tested. 

Quote
Q. Is multitasking cooperative? Or preemptive-ish?

A. afaik cooperative

In case anyone is wondering, Linux and Windows 95 (and newer) are preemptive multitasking. Window 3.11 had cooperative multitasking. However,  I was told that the cli applications were preemptive.

In a way, I was hopping that Aros was cooperatively multitasked. Since there isn't already established memory protection, I was guessing that it was cooperative.

Quote
Q. Does the bootloader have to be GRUB? Could Syslinux be setup, after install?

A. GRUB2 or uboot afaik and uboot because some hardware depends on it.

I'm not too worried about uboot. But I mostly answered this question for myself.

I should clarify this one a little. One thing I had wondered here, is if Grub2 is a fork of grub; specifically altered for Aros. For the most part boot loaders are independent of their OS. For example Syslinux boots Dos, Windows, KolibriOS, and Linux. If I installed Aros to one partition and Sysliux was on another, I could boot Aros it with Syslinux. But then it would run Grub2 right after Syslinux.

At the grub boot screen, I pressed 'e' to look over the boot config. I'm going look further at how Aros boots in the near future. Its very interesting. But I doubt Syslinux could replace Grub.

Quote
Q. Is there a recently compiled Software ISO library?

A. No sure what you mean there. A custom software library ? or one provided by the Aros OS ?

Yeah, I worded that badly. I was wondering if anyone has downloaded software that can run on Aros. Then organized them all in a Folder Library. Then uploaded as a Zip or Iso. I don't mean like the torrents of Amiga completed collections of copyrighted software. I mean, like a collection of things you can get from Aros-exec.   

Quote
Q. Does anyone actively use the p2p software for Amiga/Aros (other than IRC)?

A. hmz, not sure if i would qualify irc as p2p. Files can be exchanged by any network protocol (ftp/samba/http).

I agree that most people don't see IRC as p2p software. But some people use IRC in a very similar fashion as DC++. For example, there is a DJ hub on DC++ where artists join and share all of their work. Its kinda nice to have a place like that, without being tied to a website or commercial service. Amigift was pretty cool. I like the concept of a chat client/server that is also a file server in one package. I get that piracy gives p2p a bad reputation. But certainly the capabilities of IRC fit the definition of many p2p clients.

Quote
Q. Has there always been an error when you quit Wanderer?

A. Any workbench that you quit would produce such an error because when you quit wanderer (just a workbench) you are literally asking the "gui" to quit.

But perhaps you expected something else to happen ?

Yes. I owned a Mist FPGA for running Amiga. As long as you had a shell, you could close Workbench. It helped a little, when the system was low on memory; from running a heavy application.

Quote
Q. If you need at least one shell open to open programs with workbench, is there an escape option? Like adding & to a command in linux bash.

A. I am not sure what exactly you are asking there (i'm a bit tired, so please forgive me).

If you use the shell to compress a large file, the shell will be tied up until the compression is done.

For example: "zip collection collection.zip"

In bash you can use & to escape this, and continue to use the same shell. "zip collection collection.zip&"

I did notice commands like "newcli" for AmigaDos. I think it, or something like it, will work for me; even if there is no escape option like &. So If I am working without wanderer, I can use something like "newcli"; then I am not stuck with only one shell.   

Quote
A lot of questions indeed :-)

In case you wish to know more just ask, although i am not a system developer so am nort always able to answer things that are deeply embedded into the os.

You did pretty good. I am really glad that everyone took the time to answer some things.

I'm 99.9~% fatalist. I couldn't tell you where the rest comes from?


AMIGASYSTEM

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Reply #14 on: December 16, 2021, 11:13:29 PM


If you use the shell to compress a large file, the shell will be tied up until the compression is done.

For example: "zip collection collection.zip"

In bash you can use & to escape this, and continue to use the same shell. "zip collection collection.zip&"

Also the SHELL or CLI you can release and use while running something, to do this you have to use
Run >Nil:
This parameter also in front of any App (but also in the back) will not even show comments or errors